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Index » Regional/Local » USA/Canada » illegal immigrants Page: 1, 2, 3 ... 102, 103, 104  Next
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R_P

R_P Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 8, 2024 - 2:55pm

 steeler wrote:

I am opposed to unnecessarily demonizing groups of people and stoking fear because that likely will lead to more senseless acts of violence being committed, not fewer.

💯
“Tough” Border Policies Don’t Work. It’s Time Harris and Trump Accepted That
Both Parties Are Competing to See Who Can Keep Propping Up the Same Old Failed Myths About Immigration
We have seen this movie before. The reality is US presidents from both parties have been implementing "tough," often deadly, policies at the border for 30 years. They haven't worked. It's time for US leaders to acknowledge the folly of policies aimed at deterring immigration and to re-think how borders can be managed in a way that respects human rights.

US Should Stop Scapegoating Migrants
Biden's Misguided Praise for Abusive Policies Disregards Lives Lost

black321

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Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 8, 2024 - 2:48pm

 steeler wrote:

The flawed logic: The proposition is that anytime an illegal migrant commits a violent crime that stands as support for the position that there is a crisis at our border with Mexico requiring emergency measures to keep illegal migrants from crossing the border into the United States. The logic is that if the illegal migrant who committed the violent crime had not entered illegally across that border the crime would not have happened. True enough,; it indeed, has initial appeal.

But think about the underlying logic and where it takes us. For example, if a person who has gained entry to the U.S. through legal migration commits a violent crime, one could maintain that the crime would not have happened if that person had not been permitted to enter the country. Is that a good argument for curtailing legal immigration?

Take it out of the immigration context. A person serving time in prison is released on parole and then commits a violent crime. Is that a good argument for curtailing parole or otherwise releasing prisoners? A person who has been arrested and charged with a crime is released on bail pending trial and commits a violent crime while out on bail. Is that a good argument for curtailing release on bail? You get the idea.

This is not to say that I am in favor of allowing persons to enter the country illegally – or to stay illegally after the expiration of a visa. However, the reality is that some number always will do so. And if one of those commits a violent crime while here, does that mean we have a crisis because that life somehow could have been spared if we had only (1) built a segment of a wall on some portion of the border with Mexico; (2) stationed more military at various points of the border and made guarding it part of their mission: (3) something else? There always will be a point of diminishing returns.

That is not to say that I do not value each American life. Nor am I necessarily opposed to increased border security. I am opposed to unnecessarily demonizing groups of people and stoking fear because that likely will lead to more senseless acts of violence being committed, not fewer.


True.  the issue isn’t immigration but how we monitor and process migrants (or the lack thereof)

steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Nov 8, 2024 - 2:42pm

The flawed logic: The proposition is that anytime an illegal migrant commits a violent crime that stands as support for the position that there is a crisis at our border with Mexico requiring emergency measures to keep illegal migrants from crossing the border into the United States. The logic is that if the illegal migrant who committed the violent crime had not entered illegally across that border the crime would not have happened. True enough,; it indeed, has initial appeal.

But think about the underlying logic and where it takes us. For example, if a person who has gained entry to the U.S. through legal migration commits a violent crime, one could maintain that the crime would not have happened if that person had not been permitted to enter the country. Is that a good argument for curtailing legal immigration?

Take it out of the immigration context. A person serving time in prison is released on parole and then commits a violent crime. Is that a good argument for curtailing parole or otherwise releasing prisoners? A person who has been arrested and charged with a crime is released on bail pending trial and commits a violent crime while out on bail. Is that a good argument for curtailing release on bail? You get the idea.

This is not to say that I am in favor of allowing persons to enter the country illegally – or to stay illegally after the expiration of a visa. However, the reality is that some number always will do so. And if one of those commits a violent crime while here, does that mean we have a crisis because that life somehow could have been spared if we had only (1) built a segment of a wall on some portion of the border with Mexico; (2) stationed more military at various points of the border and made guarding it part of their mission: (3) something else? There always will be a point of diminishing returns.

That is not to say that I do not value each American life. Nor am I necessarily opposed to increased border security. I am opposed to unnecessarily demonizing groups of people and stoking fear because that likely will lead to more senseless acts of violence being committed, not fewer.
Isabeau

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Location: sou' tex
Gender: Female


Posted: Sep 17, 2024 - 4:52pm

 kurtster wrote:




Steely_D

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Location: At the dude ranch / above the sea
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 17, 2024 - 3:46pm

 black321 wrote:


apples and oranges no? 
although i think the salt lake issue is more a state migration issue than a religious one. 


If the argument is that there are too many people for the USA to deal with, and it's not about racism or provincialism, it's a reasonable corollary.
And the indications are that it's climate change and overpopulation of the area. This is from a philosophy called Quiverfull.

kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 17, 2024 - 10:12am

 oldviolin wrote:
 black321 wrote:
It's high time immigration   every conceivable issue construed by mankind stops being a political football, 
 
+1

.
black321

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Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 17, 2024 - 9:47am

 Steely_D wrote:


Are you also, while we're at it, ready to tell the Catholics and Mormons that there's a limit on how many children they can have? Look at the ecological disaster that's the Great Salt Lake - because of "excessive water use and a worsening climate crisis." Shouldn't the people there stop adding to the problem and if they won't, should there be legislation? 





apples and oranges no? 
although i think the salt lake issue is more a state migration issue than a religious one. 
oldviolin

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Location: esse quam videri
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 17, 2024 - 9:45am

 black321 wrote:


It's high time immigration   every conceivable issue construed by mankind stops being a political football, 


Steely_D

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Location: At the dude ranch / above the sea
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 17, 2024 - 9:41am

 black321 wrote:


It's high time immigration stops being a political football, 

We'll get a 2-3 year break starting in early November...

Steely_D

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Location: At the dude ranch / above the sea
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 17, 2024 - 9:40am

 kurtster wrote:

Fine, whatever, but ...

How many is too many ?

Now we just added another 10 million, who, wait for it ... need homes.



Are you also, while we're at it, ready to tell the Catholics and Mormons that there's a limit on how many children they can have? Look at the ecological disaster that's the Great Salt Lake - because of "excessive water use and a worsening climate crisis." Shouldn't the people there stop adding to the problem and if they won't, should there be legislation? 



black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 17, 2024 - 9:31am

 kurtster wrote:

Policy or laws ?

It has been a political football since the 60's.  Caesar Chavez anyone ?

New laws are meaningless because they will never be enforced like the present ones we already have.  Trump tried and look what happened.

To think new laws will change anything anymore is an outright lie and anyone who says so is a liar.

We need less laws because most of the ones we have on the books are either bad or just plain archaic.

We need laws that are enforceable.  And that requires discussions and establishing priorities.

But we are not allowed to have discussions anymore.  We just have narratives that are not allowed to be challenged cuz if you do ...



Yeah, your asking to rip up all the laws on the books and start fresh with a 10 page new rule book?
Trump tried, yes. So did the democrats. 
black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 17, 2024 - 9:28am

 Lazy8 wrote:

They're already here. They're already in the housing market.

They're also already working, doing useful things, which they won't be doing if they get deported.


Sure, but then there is stuff like this...demands for shelter, healthcare, employment...which seem to trump what an average citizen gets?

https://www.newsweek.com/denve...

While the vast majority of migrants are here to build a better life and contribute to this country, as past migrants have...It seems our current handling of the situation may also be attracting the wrong element...or at least limiting our ability to weed out the wrong element. 
Lazy8

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Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 17, 2024 - 9:19am

 kurtster wrote:
Fine, whatever, but ...

How many is too many ?

We have had a housing shortage forever resulting in homelessness

Now we just added another 10 million, who, wait for it ... need homes.

So now what ?

How many is too many ?

They're already here. They're already in the housing market.

They're also already working, doing useful things, which they won't be doing if they get deported.
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 17, 2024 - 9:16am

 black321 wrote:
 kurtster wrote:

Fine, whatever, but ... How many is too many ? We have had a housing shortage forever resulting in homelessness Now we just added another 10 million, who, wait for it ... need homes. So now what ? How many is too many ?

It's high time immigration stops being a political football, 
and we focus on actual solutions,
create policy that better manages the flow of people to this country,
that doesn't burden our systems.  Good luck with that!?
 
Policy or laws ?

It has been a political football since the 60's.  Caesar Chavez anyone ?

New laws are meaningless because they will never be enforced like the present ones we already have.  Trump tried and look what happened.

To think new laws will change anything anymore is an outright lie and anyone who says so is a liar.

We need less laws because most of the ones we have on the books are either bad or just plain archaic.

We need laws that are enforceable.  And that requires discussions and establishing priorities.

But we are not allowed to have discussions anymore.  We just have narratives that are not allowed to be challenged cuz if you do ...

black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 17, 2024 - 8:44am

 kurtster wrote:

Fine, whatever, but ...

How many is too many ?

We have had a housing shortage forever resulting in homelessness

Now we just added another 10 million, who, wait for it ... need homes.

So now what ?

How many is too many ?



It's high time immigration stops being a political football, 
and we focus on actual solutions,
create policy that better manages the flow of people to this country,
that doesn't burden our systems. 

Good luck with that!?
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 17, 2024 - 8:38am

Fine, whatever, but ...

How many is too many ?

We have had a housing shortage forever resulting in homelessness

Now we just added another 10 million, who, wait for it ... need homes.

So now what ?

How many is too many ?
Steely_D

Steely_D Avatar

Location: At the dude ranch / above the sea
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 17, 2024 - 6:24am

 kurtster wrote:
 Illegal is illegal.

Yeah, but...

Can someone explain that to the guys with the big trucks that tailgate and then zoom by me going dozens of miles over the speed limit? Are we really a nation of laws, or is it just that we use laws to harass those that we don't approve of? (That's obviously rhetorical.)

Proclivities

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Location: Paris of the Piedmont
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 17, 2024 - 6:04am

 Isabeau wrote:

So "immigrants," not necessarily 'illegal' with these vetted conditions. Got it!

No path to citizenship, and no, they cannot vote in US elections.

Isabeau

Isabeau Avatar

Location: sou' tex
Gender: Female


Posted: Sep 17, 2024 - 6:03am

 Proclivities wrote:

They were vetted for travel with certain conditions (specific nations, have a sponsor, pay their own way, etc.) , outlined here somewhat.  It's not as simplified and clandestine as Fox News or Trump has described.


So "immigrants," not necessarily 'illegal' with these vetted conditions. Got it!
Proclivities

Proclivities Avatar

Location: Paris of the Piedmont
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 17, 2024 - 5:56am

 Isabeau wrote:


Link please?

They were vetted for travel with certain conditions (specific nations, have a sponsor, pay their own way, etc.) , outlined here somewhat.  It's not as simplified and clandestine as Fox News or Trump has described.

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